From the archives at Maniac High's Seduction Website:

http://www.pickupguide.com



Another way to deal with chicks who want to be abused!


From: "Julian Morrison" 
Newsgroups: alt.seduction.fast
Subject: Re: ]Debriefing HBGeek! Maniac learns about self-hating chicks!
Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2000 22:54:42 +0000



maniac_high@yahoo.com wrote:

> Am I right? Am I wrong? Honest opinions please. Constructive
> comments/opinions welcome!

Hey Maniac, I'm a total newbie at this, but what immediately occurred to
me - once you'd spotted that, you shoulda just let yourself become angry
with her in the debrief, call her a tease, "why if I were over there I'd
tan your hide for that" etc etc... basically morph into caveman mode.


---


From: jockey6969@my-deja.com
Newsgroups: alt.seduction.fast
Subject: Re: Some questions, some answers: Eye Contact, Approaches, Neg Hits, Phones
Date: Tue, 05 Dec 2000 15:27:54 GMT


I highly agree.  My two cents is, better to drive them to ANY emotional
extreme rather than none at all.  This is supported by the "chicks are
emotion junkies" so often quoted in this NG.  It also explains why
beautiful women stay with abusive boyfriends, in spite of the fact that
they say they "just want a nice guy that treats them right".  How many
times have I, we, been that "nice guy in shining armor" ready to rescue
HBabused that we were in love with away from evil Bluto?  Show of
hands, anyone?  (Jockey raises hand sheepishly.)

Ah, but no more.  Now we have seen the way of the Enlightened one, the
one they call PUA.  Now we know that that to elicit an emotional
response is good - even if it's a bad emotion.  After all, drug addicts
take both uppers and downers, so why shouldn't emotion addicts (women)
do the same?

Whether eliciting sadness as in my post, or anger, as in yours, the
goal is the same.  To stir emotions.  Now, obviously, you don't stay in
the "bad place", you reframe it into a good emotion, or at least a
receptive one.  I like your "feminazi" routine, especially the
explanation of being "carried away by her rhetoric".  Brilliant.

It reminds me of a lay I got one time from a chick who live in an
apartment upstairs from me.  We somehow got into philosophies, and I
went into some rant about ends justifying means, and how I didn't care
how I got what I wanted out of life, so long as I got it.  She
disagreed with this and got pissed off, even said "people like you
should live in shit".  So anyway, a few hours later, we're making out,
LOL, we get naked, get in bed, and she STOPS MY ADVANCES.  Start with
the "let's just cuddle" pricktease bullshit.  Probably hadn't done
enough groundwork, a la Maniac.  So anyway, I get pissed, grab my
clothes and storm out, (another negative emotion), with her calling my
name as I'm walking out.  I don't turn back.  I go downstairs.  I
really was pissed, so I must have forgot to lock the door to my
apartment.  So about 5 minutes later, she walks in, without knocking,
with a very sheepish look and apologetic attitude.  I was in like
flynn.  Soon after, I fuck closed her.  She did this really cool thing
too, where she spun around on my dick in midfuck while straddling me,
but that's a different discussion, LOL....

---

From: zip@jack.com (Zipjack)
Newsgroups: alt.seduction.fast
Subject: Re: ]Debriefing HBGeek! Maniac learns about self-hating chicks!
Date: Fri, 15 Dec 2000 22:18:39 GMT

On Wed, 13 Dec 2000 14:39:21 GMT, maniac_high@yahoo.com wrote:

>The key to the debrief I learned, in conjunction with
>something she said the last date. She said that she didn't
>'love myself'. Now, why is this important?


I'm surprised you'd never looked into this before.
She's at the stage that she has some insight, and perhaps a wish to
change. Her candor was not necessarily a sign of trust, but one of
poor boundaries.

>
>Well, fast forward to the debrief tonight, and I started
>to ask her about her last boyfriend (a playboy type of
>guy is sounds like), and me. He didn't treat her well,
>but she was interested in him, so she fucked him and
>became his GF (one of them I guess). This happened on
>date 2 with him.
>
>Then I asked her what was different about me. She said
>the problem was that nothing was wrong with me, in fact,
>that I was absolutely perfect, so that she didn't deserve
>such a good guy as me. (my hunch is that she was being
>honest about saying this, by her tonality). Well, that is
>good, I conveyed that I was a good guy and desireable.



Hmmm...yet your behavior towards women has been similar to her old
BF's, no? I'd be interested to know what she means by "good guy". Now,
to your credit, Maniac, you've always been forthright with women, if I
am to believe what you post here, which I do, for the most part.
You should draw her out about what she means by "good guy".
It sounds like what she really needs is someone to talk to.

>
>Where I fucked up, was that I didn't realize that this
>chick hates herself, and thus (like HB blitz) wants to
>punish her self for this by throwing her self to shit
>guys, and denying herself the 'good' ones when they come.


Then again, if one assumes that she actually is seeking a monogamous
LTR, she is expressing her self-destructive tendencies by being with a
guy whose goals are different than hers, so in this way, she is also
punishing herself.

>
>As a result of this, I have added into the Maniac plan,
>a new part in 'D' (deeper), to see if the girl loves
>her self, or what her self opinion is. If she hates her
>self, then a less caring, more aggressive approach is
>needed (the "treat like shit caveman fuck approach")
>to fuck such a sort of chick like this because the key
>now is that she wants to use you as a form of self
>punishment, so you have to be that type of guy for her.
>From that step on, the plan get changed/shortened to
>pay attention to her less, and treat her like the
>piece of she wants to be and thinks she is.

I cringe as I read this.
Throw back the little ones!
>
>In short, that was why she fucked the playboy the last
>time around (she even said so when I presented the
>facts this way). Then he dumped her, and she was really
>looking for a new guy to 'punish' her more and abuse
>her more.


Yes, exactly.

 I was too 'perfect' and ideal, so looked
>to her like I couldn't do the job.. 


Right.

which is why I
>failed with this chick. Initially though, I got past
>the first date because of the Screambabe invasion.
>That made me look like a playboy, and was in
>fact, exactly what she was looking for. Just I didnt
>sustain that image after that, which is why I lost
>out with this particular chick.


She may be looking for something different than the typical LTR.
Its possible that she's very literally seeking punishment from you.
>
>Excellent.. I will recognize this and act appropriately
>the next time if it ever happens again. BTW, I also
>notice that this "self hate" trait is far more common
>in beautiful chicks (HB Blitz, HB Geek), than 'normal'
>ones. Important with these beauties especially, to be
>on the lookout for it.
>
>Am I right? Am I wrong? Honest opinions please.
>Constructive comments/opinions welcome!
>

See above, and feel free to e-mail me if you are so inclined.
It may be possible for the two of you to develop something very
interesting, but she must be able to TRUST you to manage the situation
correctly. In any case, I don't think she's out of reach if you have
compatible goals. As far as the beauty thing goes, I think nice
looking people are shaped differently by the responses and
expectations of others. She has probably come to believe that her only
value in anyone's eyes, perhaps even her own, is physical.


Kate

---

From: zip@jack.com (Zipjack)
Newsgroups: alt.seduction.fast
Subject: Re: ]Debriefing HBGeek! Maniac learns about self-hating chicks!

Date: Fri, 15 Dec 2000 22:24:54 GMT

On 13 Dec 2000 18:59:45 GMT, telembe@aol.com (TELEMBE) wrote:

>I'm really sorry that I read this post. This is one of the most callous things
>I have ever read on this newsgroup. 
>
>Are you aware that your behavior can push a chick like this close to, or over,
>the edge? Since you know through manipulation how to "give" a person what they
>want, you are going to be conveying some really desirable qualities even if you
>also treat her like shit. (Which, by the way, shouldn't be any sort of a feat
>for you, because it's what you do naturally.) 
>Women like htis don't actually *want* to be treated like shit, they just feel
>it is all they deserve. 


True, although ultimately, she must learn to navigate these waters on
her own, as must every woman. I'm not condoning taking advantage of
the situation, but I don't think its anyone else's responsibility to
help her re-build her dignity. Its her issue, and it sounds like she's
made some inroads into changing her actions.
>
>You are really fucking this person up by continuing to mount onto her horrible
>self-concept that she is a piece of shit.

Like I said, she needs to gain control of her own situation by knowing
her goals and sticking to them. It sounds as if she's confused.
>
>This leads to all sorts of MESSED UP crap like eating disorders, self
>mutilation, drug abuse, depression, and even suicide. And even if you don't
>care about HER, consider the chance that somehow she may try to pull you into
>her self drama. Ever heard of borderline personality disorder?


Actually, some of these may have existed within her sphere for years
before she met Maniac. The bottom line is, people overcome adversity
of all kinds, all the time. She will be much stronger for learning to
deal with these types of situations.

Kate


----


From: Alan Palmer 
Newsgroups: alt.seduction.fast
Subject: Re: ]Debriefing HBGeek! Maniac learns about self-hating chicks!
Date: Thu, 14 Dec 2000 13:08:11 +1100

maniac_high@yahoo.com wrote:
> 
...
> Excellent.. I will recognize this and act appropriately
> the next time if it ever happens again. BTW, I also
> notice that this "self hate" trait is far more common
> in beautiful chicks (HB Blitz, HB Geek), than 'normal'
> ones. Important with these beauties especially, to be
> on the lookout for it.
> 
> Am I right? Am I wrong? Honest opinions please.
> Constructive comments/opinions welcome!
> 

To screen for chicks with self-esteem problems, listen to what she says.

She'll tell you what you need to know, even when you first meet her.

Does she tell little humorous stories about herself, in which she loses?

Does she make joking throwaway comments that put herself down? "I'm not
worth it". "I don't deserve it".

Does she apologise for things that are not her responsibility? "I'm
sorry".

Does she have trouble accepting compliments? "Oh, no, it's just some
dress I threw on."

Does she have trouble acknowledging her own accomplishments? "Oh, no, it
was luck, really." Even a chick who seem to be a high-achiever can
secretly feel she's a worthless fake.

Does she generalise from one or two bad experiences and turn them into
"never" and "always"? "Waiters always ignore me in restaurants."

Does she tell you about "all" the guys who treat her badly?

She'll tell you all about her self-esteem, or lack of it. She can't help
but tell you. She may disguise it with a joking tone of voice, but
she'll tell you, and more than once. The clues will pour out of her like
water from a seive. All you have to do is listen.

And AFCs, guess what - this applies to you and me. Listen to yourselves
when next meet a chick.

What stories do you tell about yourselves? Ones in which you win? Or
lose?

What joking throwaway comments do you make against yourself? And how
many? Just one or two, for the sake of humility? Or several, one after
the other, for the sake of "honesty"?

Her chick-logic subconscious will pick it all up. Guess what she's going
to conclude about you and your self-esteem?

And guess what: she's right in thinking that, isn't she? You'll give her
all the clues she needs. The clues will pour out of you. All she has to
do is listen.

----

From: maniac_high@yahoo.com
Newsgroups: alt.seduction.fast
Subject: Re: ]Debriefing HBGeek! Maniac learns about self-hating chicks!
Date: Sat, 16 Dec 2000 04:39:01 GMT

Everyone, whoisthis, rio, RJ, svengali, zipjack etc.. thank you for your
excellent comments about my HBgeek debrief report.

This is why I post real life field reports to ASF, so that
I can get clear direct and varying opinions from all of
you about what I did right, wrong..etc.

Lets look at all of the major points made, and see what
I I did right and what else I could have done different based
on what you all said. .


Ok, first let us look at the basic premise of what is wrong
with the chick. After the chat with her, and then the discussions
after here on ASF, my hunch is that my initial premise of this
chick is right  (that she wants a playboy or other sort of 'jerk'
to play/abuse her, as a form of self punishment).
Zipjack, (a very bright lady, who actually posts alot of useful
things on the NG, seems to concur, here is a little of what she
wrote)

zipjack:
>BF's, no? I'd be interested to know what she means by "good guy". Now,
>to your credit, Maniac, you've always been forthright with women, if I
>am to believe what you post here, which I do, for the most part.
>You should draw her out about what she means by "good guy".
>It sounds like what she really needs is someone to talk to.
>...
>She may be looking for something different than the typical LTR.
>Its possible that she's very literally seeking punishment from
you.

Ok, so now what do we do about it?
Well, first thing, is what are my goals with a chick. They are to:
1)Lay her
2)Make this the best experience she ever had with a guy
3)Make her dying to see me whenever I want her to
4)Make her see this later as being a very positive experience
5)Not do too much work to achieve the above on any given chick
 (ie. know when to cut my losses)


So now, that in mind, what could I have done better. Here are some good
opinions from the stack:

Ross Jeffries writes:

>   Or maybe you might consider there are more important things in the
world
>than using someone's own self-hatred against them just so you can get
your dick
>wet. Maybe your own self-respect would require you to leave a person
like that
>alone for those who enjoy being shitty to her.
>..


RJ, is basically right about this. . However, the catch is that, she is
going to fuck SOMEBODY. Better that she meet me I figure (who is basically a
good guy, but can behave like a jerk when he needs to to PU a chick), than
to skip me and get a REAL asshole who thinks she is shit, and will really treat
her like shit down to the core. At least if she gets over the first 'jerk'
fuck with me, I can treat her reasonable (but still keeping in mind how she
wants to be treated), and fulfill  2..4 above. I think that is better
really. .

RJ continues:
>  Plenty of fish in the sea without dealing with sickos like this. They are
>NEVER worth the trouble they bring......EVER.


Very true, but.. the problem is that most stunningly gorgeous HBs you
run into are like this. . So best to have an action plan in dealing with
them I figure since it just happens so often. .


Ok, now lets move on to svengali's (it is the real sven BTW) excellent
followup
>> Where I fucked up, was that I didn't realize that this
>> chick hates herself,
>
>errrh.  Wrong!
>Where you fucked up was in not knowing her sexual kino factor, and you
>didn't turn her on with something, anything, that had her wanting to be
>with you both sexually and physically.

My hunch here is that we are both right. I didn't turn her on is
absolutely right. And the reason I didn't turn her on, is that I wasn't the 'jerk'
she wanted me to be (except for the first date, but we ran out of time that
day, after the screambabe invasion). I didn't get angry at her, and make her
feel like shit, which is what she needs to get turned on. .

>Look, women say this shit to themselves over, and over, and over again
>to justify what they really want --excitement!  Where do they get
>excitement?  From guys that don't do what all the other guys do.

Sven is also TOTALLY right about this. It related to the above. THe
first time she was at my place, I needed to get angry at her, like that
Jupiter guy and Rio said, turn on the TV and make her show she is a real woman
if she is to get any of my attention. Just making normal 'moves' isnt
enough (because I was.. plenty), she needed some 'sparks' to get things going.

Now, lets look at something else that happened this week for a moment,
because this relates to this in an important way.

I had a chat with karatebabe last week, because she
was really being icy to me, and almost the same shit as that HBGeek.
I sent her a sayonara note the next day for her misbehavior (I had
really planned to break up with her because I was tired of her shit).

Then she wrote back (since I have been seeing her for over 6 months,
I get the truth from her).. 'why you dont get angry at me? That is how
couple can really communicate, I want to see your anger. But I was cold
all day and night (though she did let me fuck her), and you WOULDNT get
angry with me? Why? it is not normal!' [end karatebabe chat]

This here is key! She gets excited when I get angry, and call the
bullshit with her DIRECTLY. I was AFC'ing it out, and tolerated her
shit, and just tried to do more 'romantic' talk and shit like that.. but she
wanted a fight! THAT is what turns her on! And she said so.. directly!

Ok, now back to HBGeek. .
svengali continues:

>You're dead wrong!
>Honestly!
>And if you keep basing your actions on just one, few or some women, you
>are headed for diaster, after diaster, after diaster.

I will defer to svengali on this one. I am curious then, what would you
(svengali) have done in this situation. That will make things more clear
to me for the next time. Please be detailed in the reply, it will be
more helpful to me that way.

Ok, to JMR's post:

>There is actually a big part of this covered in Ross' BHSC.  It's called the
>"Jerk Destroyer", and it's a very effective way to get a woman out of the
>mindset of dating jerks, and focusing all of her energy, love, and lust on you.
>
>Basically, what I'm saying is, don't cotton to the idea of being a jerk just to
>get laid.  Rather, kill two birds with one stone...  you get to help her to
>love herself again enough to allow herself to have a great guy, and you get to
>be that great guy.  And, best of all, you don't have to be someone that you're

JMR has a good idea here, but
I worry that this (and chicks like her) are so fucked up, that there is
no way that this would have worked until AFTER you have already fucked
her, and she starts to listen to you (over and over and over as the relationship
continues). Opinions from anyone else? I think the jerk destroyer can
work on 'normal' chicks who are thinking (in a chick way) logically, but this
lady was too far gone, I think trying this would have probably broken
rapport because it is so far from her model of herself, and the world. .


Ok, lets move on to Greg (a dude I really respect!)

>I didnt care much for these rules because they seemed to come from a
>place of neediness.  I'm sure you can remeber times where you didnt need
>these rules.  Times when you'd be fucking some other chick while HB Geek
>would be at your door begging to be let in.  Remeber that shit?  In the
>old days you wouldn't have to punish, instruct, mindfuck, correct or
>anything... just don't answer the door.

Good point. Actually, those days are still around, and that is ALWAYS
an option. But it is boring, and I learn nothing from just tossing her
out after the first time over, and calling over chick #3.. who I already
know how to fuck.. been there,
done that.. That just lets me fuck chicks (which I already know how to
do),
but it does not let me improve my PU skills regarding new types of
chicks (like HBGeek) who I do not know how to fuck yet.

See, I think a chick is like a puzzle. I want to open it, and
find the surprise inside. If I want a fuck, I will just get a chick
I already know how to fuck.. if I want to learn something new though,
I have to do it this way.. it is not neediness.. just tangling with a
new kind of puzzle that I am not yet quite sure how to open because
it is simply interesting to do so, and I want to see how far I can get.
THis is different from just getting sex.. if I want just that, there are
six chicks I can call who will come over in 30 minutes for that. .
The above game, with HBgeek, is far more interesting I think. .

> Then call up chick number 5 to meet in the
>parking lot for a BJ.  Remeber those days?  If this was a year ago I'm
>sure this chick would have been at your door while you was fucking
>someone else.  What has changed?

That is probably so.. in fact, in retrospect, that would have been the
thing to do (see below) to get this chick to want to fuck me.. live and learn!



And now, the correct solution probably would have been something like
Julian and Rio wrote:

Julian writes:

>Hey Maniac, I'm a total newbie at this, but what immediately occurred to
>me - once you'd spotted that, you shoulda just let yourself become angry
>with her in the debrief, call her a tease, "why if I were over there I'd
>tan your hide for that" etc etc... basically morph into caveman mode.

Rio writes:

>Just curious if you cut off ALL contact with the chick as soon as she
>started freaking out.
>I've had to do this several times. She acts up, gets whiny, and as soon as
>it happens, I just whack the TV on and ignore her.
>She's in your place, so she's not going to go anywhere. More likely she'll
>want to try to sort things out once you have gone cold to her, though.

Yep, that would have worked (when she was at my place).. this is where
I fucked up. . I will do this the next time!



Comments and opinions welcome!
Thanks everyone for your EXCELLENT comments on this, I learned alot
from what you all wrote.

Maniac High
http://www.pickupguide.com

---

From: Svengali 
Newsgroups: alt.seduction.fast
Subject: Attn: Maniac -- you're directed request for a reply
Date: Sat, 16 Dec 2000 18:57:21 -0800

> >> Maniac first said:
> >> Where I fucked up, was that I didn't realize that this
> >> chick hates herself,

> > Svengali wrote:
> >errrh.  Wrong!
> >Where you fucked up was in not knowing her sexual kino factor, and you
> >didn't turn her on with something, anything, that had her wanting to be
> >with you both sexually and physically.

> Maniac replied:
> Ok, now lets move on to svengali's (it is the real sven BTW) excellent
> follow up
 
> My hunch here is that we are both right. I didn't turn her on is
> absolutely
> right. And the reason I didn't turn her on, is that I wasn't the 'jerk'
> she
> wanted me to be (except for the first date, but we ran out of time that
> day,
> after the screambabe invasion). I didn't get angry at her, and make her
> feel
> like shit, which is what she needs to get turned on. .

> > Svengali wrote:
> >Look, women say this shit to themselves over, and over, and over again
> >to justify what they really want --excitement!  Where do they get
> >excitement?  From guys that don't do what all the other guys do.

> Maniac replied: 
> Sven is also TOTALLY right about this. It related to the above. The
> first
> time she was at my place, I needed to get angry at her, like that
> Jupiter
> guy and Rio said, turn on the TV and make her show she is a real woman
> if
> she is to get any of my attention. Just making normal 'moves' isnt
> enough
> (because I was.. plenty), she needed some 'sparks' to get things going.
> 
> Now, lets look at something else that happened this week for a moment,
> because this relates to this in an important way.
> 
> I had a chat with karatebabe last week, because she
> was really being icy to me, and almost the same shit as that HBGeek.
> I sent her a sayonara note the next day for her misbehavior (I had
> really
> planned to break up with her because I was tired of her shit).
> 
> Then she wrote back (since I have been seeing her for over 6 months,
> I get the truth from her).. 'why you dont get angry at me? That is how
> couple can really communicate, I want to see your anger. But I was cold
> all day and night (though she did let me fuck her), and you WOULDNT get
> angry with me? Why? it is not normal!' [end karatebabe chat]
> 
> This here is key! She gets excited when I get angry, and call the
> bullshit with her DIRECTLY. I was AFC'ing it out, and tolerated her
> shit,
> and just tried to do more 'romantic' talk and shit like that.. but she
> wanted a fight! THAT is what turns her on! And she said so.. directly!
> 
> Ok, now back to HBGeek. .
> svengali continues:

> > Svengali wrote:
> >You're dead wrong!
> >Honestly!
> >And if you keep basing your actions on just one, few or some women,
> > you are headed for diaster, after diaster, after diaster.

> Maniac replied:  
> I will defer to Svengali on this one. I am curious then, what would you
> (Svengali) have done in this situation. That will make things more clear
> to me for the next time. Please be detailed in the reply, it will be
> more helpful to me that way.

You got it!

First off, I'm not into self deprecating/bi-polar women.
Here's how you discover them: Going through your own natural style of
saying and doing whatever, you see that she's not responding very well. 
So you try another avenue, and that doesn't seem to work.  Okay, one
more time through another venue.  Nope, didn't work.

R-e-v-e-r-s-a-l Time!

Hey bitch, I didn't ask you this time, I told you...  Now get your ass
in gear and do it!  [Dead silence, big stare down.]
She does, she's self deprecating/bi-polar.
She doesn't, and complains/screams: time for scum route.
"Stop!  I don't want to hear any of your shit.  You're clearly not good
enough for me or anyone else for that matter."
Very important: YOU fucking walk and present yourself to next ravishing
beauty you see.  Also very important: you *must* do this at this point,
so you're just going to have to pick the best from what is available.

Alright, now the pro's and con's and everything else that goes into the
above.
1) The bitch does what you say.  Fine you've got an S-M situation with
a self deprecating/bi-polar woman.  If that's what you want, and if
that's what you're prepared to deal with, more power to you because
you're going to need it.
2) She complains/screams, but stops you before you go, and apologizes:
you've got a woman who *wants* to be dominated, and was testing you to
see if you could do it, and herself to see if this is really what she
wants: to be controlled by some guy (her actions told you yes).

She complains/screams, you leave, and she, because you are giving her
the opportunity to do so {see why I said what I did?}, comes to you and
apologizes.  Fine, you say, but she is going to have to make up for her
wrong-doing.  {If you don't know where you would go with this, I'm
speaking to the wrong kind of guy.  However, is this the kind of woman
and relationship you want to be having?}

Having been there, Maniac, I can tell you that S-M relationships get
real boring, real fast.  Yeah, they're a party for awhile, but then you
quickly discover that the women don't do or eat shit --literally--
until you tell them to do so.  You will also discover that even though
you think you are the master in this kind of relationship, you quickly
learn that you are just as much a slave to it, as you have made her and
it out to be.  One other thing, the first guy to come along that is
even more brutal and cruel then you, she's out of there and with him. 
Then you have that situation to deal with.  {It's just like the money
women who leave to go the next even richer guy.}  So thank you, but no
thank you.  It's a no win situation.

I *strongly* suggest to you, as a guy who has seen other guys who have
been stabbed, shot and even bludgeoned awake while they were sleeping,
that you forget about self deprecating/bi-polar and/or S-M leaning
women.  In the end, your life will just be miserable for having
involved yourself with them.

Read my "Svengali Secret" post next.

-- 
  'o o'
Svengali


---


From: zip@jack.com (Zipjack)
Newsgroups: alt.seduction.fast
Subject: Maniac-followup to HBhatesherself
Date: Sat, 16 Dec 2000 17:30:44 GMT

Maniac wrote:

Ok, first let us look at the basic premise of what is wrong
with the chick. After the chat with her, and then the discussions
after here on ASF, my hunch is that my initial premise of this
chick is right  (that she wants a playboy or other sort of 'jerk'
to play/abuse her, as a form of self punishment).
Zipjack, (a very bright lady, who actually posts alot of useful
things on the NG, seems to concur, here is a little of what she
wrote)

zipjack wrote:

>BF's, no? I'd be interested to know what she means by "good guy". Now,
>to your credit, Maniac, you've always been forthright with women, if I
>am to believe what you post here, which I do, for the most part.
>You should draw her out about what she means by "good guy".
>It sounds like what she really needs is someone to talk to.
>...
>She may be looking for something different than the typical LTR.
>Its possible that she's very literally seeking punishment from
you.


Maniac wrote:


Ok, so now what do we do about it?
Well, first thing, is what are my goals with a chick. They are to:
1)Lay her
2)Make this the best experience she ever had with a guy
3)Make her dying to see me whenever I want her to
4)Make her see this later as being a very positive experience
5)Not do too much work to achieve the above on any given chick
 (ie. know when to cut my losses)



So if I understand you correctly, you want something that is able to
evolve that allows her to develop these self-hating tendencies into
sexual expression of literal representation: S and M, basically.
You don't want a traditional LTR, but a sexual odyssey of sorts, that
could be ongoing.
I will tell you something. There are women who desire just such a
situation, but it is very difficult to express this to a man without
having him misunderstand completely.
She may or may not be one of these women, but I think she was looking
for a reaction that would indicate your tastes. She was looking for
some kind of emotional/physical response to her disclosure.
Did you let her see YOUR desires?
I don't have much time to get into this right now, but will attempt to
later on. What kind of emotional comfort could you give her through
taking the right kind of control? (Perhaps this is a question she's
asked herself on some level.) On the other hand, she could be looking
for a straight, missionary style LTR, leading to marriage and babies,
in which case you should cut bait immediately. More to follow,

Kate


----


From: whoisthis19@my-deja.com
Newsgroups: alt.seduction.fast
Subject: Re: ]Debriefing HBGeek! Maniac learns about self-hating chicks!
Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2000 18:06:20 GMT

In article <91erl5$7ef$1@nnrp1.deja.com>,
  maniac_high@yahoo.com wrote:

> >Look, women say this shit to themselves over, and over, and over
again
> >to justify what they really want --excitement!  Where do they get
> >excitement?  From guys that don't do what all the other guys do.
>
> Sven is also TOTALLY right about this. It related to the above. THe
> first
> time she was at my place, I needed to get angry at her, like that
> Jupiter
> guy and Rio said,


This reminds me of what a woman friend told me one time.  She was a
woman who always got into abusive relationships and eventually ended up
in prison for shooting a boyfriend.  She was a really good friend
though.  After she got out of prison, she turned her life around through
alot of hard work and help.  I was never afraid of her and we had a
good friendship.

Anyway...

One day we had a long talk over coffee.  (I'd never do her since she's
butt ugly but still a great friend.)  She tells me about how her
boyfriend one time threw her down on the floor, pinned her her down and
choked her till she lost consiousness.  He was screaming;  "I
I'LL KILL YOU!!!!!".  That was the last thing she remebered before she
lost conciousness.  She said at that moment she felt tottally loved by
him because she had all the INTENSITY of his feelings focused on her.
She said she was addicted to that and even though she would tell
everyone how she didn't like the abuse she would still "end up" in one
abusive relationshp after another.  She just never knew any other way to
feel loved.  She said she would always push the man to the point of
rage.  Like I said it took alot of hard work and support for her to get
where she is today.  (She was in prison for about 10 years.)

greg the recovering one

--
Seduction is so simple and yet we make it so complicated.